RSS SubscribeThis is an answer to the Ask Aaron Anything:
Question from Brett:
I feel the term descipleship is used so loosely when I hear it in certain places… the radio… TV, todays church….. A song or a one hour group meeting per week, or a radio show or television program discussing life issues hardly even scratches the surface of what discipleship really is. Christ was engaged daily in the lives of his disciples and spent day in and out with them. He raised them up and sent them out. My question to you is, do you feel that people are making themselves feel better by calling their more than lack luster activities discipleship? Do they know what it is? or are they making it easy and chewable just as they have done with the gospel? Furthermore what can we do as a house to show the world that discipleship works? we have so many testimonies to prove that it does.
My Answer:
Brett thanks for lobbing me a softball on my first question. I love discipleship and I cannot imagine going back to doing life with Christ or doing church any other way. I think the key in this is what you wrote in your question and that is that discipleship can never be an activity, a program, a class, a group, or any other thing that churches do and call it discipleship. It must stay at its purest state-a relationship, a life, a covenant. When it all comes down to it Jesus came to this earth and paid the highest price ever to restore relationship and purpose to His people that He created. Because of the finished work of Jesus, God placed that same Spirit that dwelt in Christ (the Holy Spirit) in His church and empowered them to fulfill the great commission to go and make disciples of all nations.
To answer your questions:
Do they know what it is? You know what, I am convinced that people are doing what they have been taught to do. One thing that really grates on me is how the church has become “Seeker Sensitive” where they are teaching people what they want to hear instead of truth. I think we have too many salesmen and not enough preachers. Salesmen who are trying to package Jesus and discipleship in a way that they believe that the consumer will buy it. I am not against big crowds… I want them!!! Just don’t change the message to keep them. When we started calling people to discipleship at lifeconnectionchurch.net all of my peers told me it was not going to work in America because it was too much commitment. I think the American church needs to look at Jesus and church as a covenant relationship and not as a religion.
Furthermore what can we do as a house to show the world that discipleship works? We can just rely on the Holy Spirit to lead us to live it. Let’s not just preach it, let’s live it. I think the biggest thing is that we continue to preach it and not deceive ourselves in being hearers but not doers. We need to continue to preach it but we need to have everyone be involved in what Mark Driscoll calls the “ground war”, we need everyone to be on the front lines and fighting the good fight everyday. Discipleship is lived out everyday not just done once a week.
Brett, I am glad you are so passionate about discipleship and the gospel, as well as I am, but one thing I have to remind myself of is I cannot just preach this thing I have to live it out. Paul says in 1 Cor. 9:27 “But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” It is going to take discipline, control, and preaching and we will show the world it works.
Hey everyone Feel free to comment…
July 16th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Something that I have been really convicted with lately is the fact that I so easily forget. I forget what He has brought me out of, what He has saved me from, and where He has promised to take me. I get so caught up in the “service”, in the “working”, that I forget to stir up the passion and gifts that are within me that are the reason I do what I do in the first place. We can’t allow ourselves to get to the place where we forget to testify… not only to others, but to ourselves also. It’s so easy to get a twisted or foggy perspective. I have to learn how to discipline myself to maintain a clear view of the cross and the visions and goals and purpose of my life as a disciple.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
We all need some of that fresh, ripe, not rotten, fruit of the Holy Spirit which includes within “self control”. Humans don’t manage this as some overseeing accountability type of program. The disciple/disciple relationship has to be approached in a true Biblical manner in most strict and ideal sense according to the Scripture and not according to any particular organization’s code of conduct or some other piece of paper one may or may not have been compelled to sign. We have 66 books in the Bible and within those pages (even online version’s pages) we can see legitimate examples of the disciple/disciple or student/teacher sort of mentoring model. There is where we should go and that is all that we need, period. It is true that things can get as Christy put so well, “…twisted or foggy…” in “…perspective…”. If our motive as the Church is that same so that we do Discipleship in order to subdue, over come, have victory, in order to set up some “Kingdom of God” so that then and only then, once we’ve taken over the world to “rule and reign” one soul at a time then we have a big problem. It isn’t the matter of opinion, but what I often point out in my own blogs and responses else where that the Bible calls “the Apostles Doctrine”, ref. Acts 2:42. Now, I’m not here to bash, point fingers or argue, but I have to stick with the Scripture and not the fad of the day or the fads of the past. In many respects, not always, Discipleship gets well…hairy, messy, and goes sour- wrong.
Brett asked these really great thought provoking questions:
My question to you is, do you feel that people are making themselves feel better by calling their more than lack luster activities discipleship? Do they know what it is? or are they making it easy and chewable just as they have done with the gospel? Furthermore what can we do as a house to show the world that discipleship works?
Sometimes, too often, Discipleship becomes just a phrase, a label, for something like what we’ll see in the supermarket- “new and improved”. All that changed was the addition, many times, on the “box” with font, design, colour, etc. yet the ingredients, the quality, the taste did not. Many truly do not have the foggiest idea what Discipleship and either adopt something like the old Shepherding model or an empty pre-packaged program ordered from some ministry materials company. In both the previous cases we need to “search the scriptures” and “study to show ourselves approved” (of God, then humanity as well as those “outside”) so that we do have a right concept and then presentation.
As far as making it “easy and chewabel” that may not be the best idea because we are not just sort of suggested by scripture to not stay on “the milk”, but we are rebuked for staying “babes” and not going onto maturity and eating that spiritual “meat”. Where does it say this? Hebrews 5:11 to 6:3. There is a perfect model for Discipleship. Discipleship isn’t all about “submission” or mentoring in our American or Westernized thinking minds. Yes, Paul whose writings are called and equal with Scripture according to @ Peter 3 said for his churches to “imitate him”, but it didn’t stop there because Paul stated that in so doing they’d be imitating Jesus.
It gets dangerous right at that exact point because if the Pastor, Pastors, leadership team, disciplers,etc. have a twisted contept of being Jesus to someone else you could get a sort of Charismatic, Protestant, Evangelical version of Papal abuse in a one on one and congregational setting. Being LIKE Jesus and BEING Jesus are two different things. One is worship, emulation, reflection and points those who “see” to the Source- Jesus Christ. The other, the less, the bad, points the eyes of others to the man or woman and this is where Discipleship can get “off”.
So what can we do as a “house” to show the world that Discipleship works with real testimonies that are not more like a plug for a product, but real evidence, a witness of the validity and relevance of it in this post-modern world?
We go to the Bible instead of books, DVDs, seminars, magazines, etc. Why? Think about it using the “100% USDA Beef” slogan many fast food restaurants use about their hamburger patties. Do you realize, know, that as long as they USE “100% USDA Beef” in the ingredients of their patties they can use that slogan legally? So if that pattie is 90% filler and 10% “100% USDA Beef” then they’ve met the requirements and thereby could if sued avoid losing.
Now take this and apply it to what we do in the Church for not only Discipleship, but every single doctrine, activity, method, presentation, etc. and you can see the problem. Using another example we could have before us after a hot day of walking just from our car to the office, outside again, to the store, etc. this glass of cold, refreshing ice water with ice cubes floating inside and condensation droplets gently sliding down the outside of this very clean and sanitary glass of water that our parched, thirty, throats want to drink. However, before we drink it a small drop the size of this period “.” is dropped into the glass of raw sewage and THEN we may drink the water. Would you drink it? Would you trust your “faith” to protect you? I wouldn’t and instead in disgust from knowing what would happen as Montezuma gave me the curse pour the glass out, run some hot water, use some anti bacterial detergent dish soap and cleanse that glass inside and out and then get some water, ice minus the raw sewage micro-dot and quench my thirst.
We have a thirsty world and too often we mix the sewage, the filler, of our own agendas, wrong motives, twisted understanding so that we need to clean our class, clean our “house” first and make sure that we are “approved” by God so that we can stand before Him not having put a heavy stone upon others with legalistic forms of Disciple ship as well as not having watered down the Truth for a generation that sometimes demands things be abrogated, edited, to suit them.
We can’t and should never alter the true form of Discipleship just because “church growth” demands that we don’t be “controversial” or for fear of offending the “unchurched”, post modern generation some how scare them away. Which is better: a House filled with new disciples that stay babes or a House filled with mature Disciples? The later is the Biblical model despite what the fads say in books, DVDs, or from the platform.
Discipleship is not a “church growth” thing and it isn’t a control-power thing either. Discipleship is exactly what we read and by so doing then see, perceive, with our physical and spiritual eyes it to be and only that so that if we do this in the kind of “agape” sort of “love” we’ll in God’s time be able to show the unsaved (the ones Jesus misses the most) world what this is and impress upon those “outside” that which could compel them through the Holy Spirit, instead of flashy, trendy, packaging or boot camp like submission models that give a false sense of security and structure to those desiring that; the very unity, and love Jesus said would be what won the world over.
It can happen and does every single day when Churches, Senior Pastors, Church leadership teams, and all the way to the top of the organization that Church is under decides to abandon using “filler” from the world in the name of “church growth”, unity, and not offending today’s generation anything in doctrine as well as Discipleship for the original model we see and then adapt short of perverting it to the needs and culture of our particular area in a city, state, nation, and world. We don’t adapt the Bible to the post-modern world; invert that concept for if we do we’ll end up with some kind of cult or at least a lot of mess that someone else will have to deal with when the hurt, deluded, and wounded who stayed are given over to a gentle, shepherd, who knows his flock and has that “smell” from being “among” the “sheep” instead of the model where the sheep protect the shepherd.
The sheep are the commodity, not the shepherds. That shepherd, that pastor, who doesn’t and refuses in the name of being “too busy”, “too anointed”, “the church is just to large” to know his sheep is a hireling a not the shepherd Jesus himself modeled for us. He died on the Cross. He came DOWN from Heaven so they need to come DOWN from their platform and OUT of their office and get to work doing what a “pastor” does according to scripture and not their church’s statement’s of faith or the rules of their particular denomination.
Instead of brokering on the phone with other “power churches”, “power pastors” and setting up times to see and be seen to “network” to hand that off, “delegate” (a severe abuse of that legitimate protocol too often in the Church) to the staff and volunteers below them, they should get out, go and into the “lower places” meet, greet, eat, and fellowship with their congregations, and the new disciples that may have just come in last Sunday. They should be so busy with that then when Bro. Fred Famous or Prophetess Susan Screamo calls he will truly be “too busy” to talk with him. He’ll have that “smell” that “sheep” produce that comes from knowing, inspecting, his Disciple-sheep.
Disciple-sheep. Get it? Arr arr, Earth humor.
So I agree, don’t water it down for the “seeker sensitive”, but live it. Don’t use Discipleship as a means to remind the ones who are experiencing it as either shepherd or sheep how they used to be children of darkness in order to use shame, fear and humiliation to “get results”. We don’t need an “outcome based” Christianity with forced results that end up getting us some mutation and a diseased congregation from an infected vine. We need to gently, lovingly lead, guide, and protect in the most ideal Acts 2:42 sense all our congregations at all times.
My last thought on this is to ask this: Do people know what “the Apostles Doctrine” even is?
It isn’t the doctrines of men like John Calvin, Tertullian, Origen, Augustine, Wesley, etc. even they are called “church fathers”. We are told to not call ANYONE father and we aren’t talking about Mom and Dad, but this insanity of name dropping and referring to some “spiritual father” or “spiritual mother” when Christ forbade that, yet we still see blatant disobedience to Jesus directly in how many do things and say things then justify it by dropping names, giving testimonies about “them” (who are these “them”) so that like the above statement Aaron made we have more of a “salesman” who is plugging the latest thing “you gotta have now” with bells and whistles- bling bling.
Test everything, don’t just accept it because they say they built this, did that, went here, healed them there, etc. That is posturing and using the fallen of our fallen human nature which is the “lust of the eyes”, “the lust of the flesh” and “the pride of life” to make a point, win favor and it just wrong. We dont’ have to fight about it, we don’t have to disrupt a service or get up in a pastor’s face about it, but we do have to answer to Jesus directly for what WE chose to do with it which would be in our best interest- nothing, but toss it in the garbage.
I’m impressed though to see people not conform with the presented “norm” and “form” of today who apparently have so exercised their senses from the proper use of the Word of God and/or heeded the gentle voice of the Holy Spirit that they’ve matured enough to not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine that may look good on the outside like an ornate tomb filled with rotten, maggot feasted, flesh.
Thanks for inviting me to this blog network. I appreciate the dialog and the standard being presented here which points us back to Christ.
Shalom eternal.
July 18th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Incredible response. I would like to start by saying that @ life connection church, we dont pass around a jug of toxic kool-aid and wait for heaven’s gates to open up. There is no accountability that is not openly recieved or harsh treatment by people with controll issues. Also, there is no one there who is trying to be Jesus to someone else. Our goal is to share in the heart of Christ and love and teach the way he did. The fellowship of the brothers that are disciples of the house is amazing and I couldn’t picture life without it now that I have it.
It certainly sounds like you have encountered or heard of some crazy, cultish power mongers that call brainwashing and taking controll of people’s minds discipleship…. thats insane. Please don’t be offended. We just want to wwash away the toxicity of what discipleship has become and truly live it out the way scripture depicts.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:37 am
Go Get’em Boy… that how we protect the vision of the Church!