This is a question sent in by ZealForJesus on the “Ask Aaron Anything” link:
This portion of your blog is ask aaron anything. So i will ask you with all sincerity of heart, and zeal for the God of heaven and earth this question. Why do we put men in such positions of honor and call them, leaders, teachers, fathers when Christ said we are all brothers with one leader and thats HIM?
Matthew 23:8-10
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi’ for YOU HAVE ONLY ONE MASTER, AND YOU ARE ALL BROTHERS! And do not call anyone on earth ‘Father’, for you have one Father, and he is in heaven! Nor are you to be called teacher, for you have ONE TEACHER, THE CHRIST!”
Yes men are suppose to disciple those people in the church, but they are not there disciples, they are Christs disciples, and we are all brothers, so why give people leadership postions and call them cell group leaders, is it because they have earned it? Leadership in the church can not be earned, leaders are made by the Spirit of God at work in them! yet we are all brothers, part of one body, with one Father and leader, the Christ! Imagine what we could do when we put an emphesis on Christ as the Father, Christ as the Teacher, Christ as the Leader and Head, Christ as our God we His church and body, which are one body, with different functions but yet all equal. After all is’nt that the gospel truth? So hears my question, and if you want you can post only this part if you post this at all. I want a straight answer, who is the discipler of our church members, is it God or is it man?
My Answer:
Your screen name is Zeal for Jesus and I think these verses will explain what is missing in your question.
Pr 19:2 - It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way.
Ro 10:2 - For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
It seems early on in this blog we had this same thread of questioning and had to erase it because there where some feelings hurt. It is great to be zealous for Jesus but you need knowledge on how Jesus set up His church. I will try to answer this again and see if we can get somewhere.
Jesus is the Discipler and He has sent the church to be disciplers (Matthew 28:19)
Jesus is the Shepheard/pastor but He calls some men in the church to the position of Shepheard/Pastor.
Jesus is the Prophet but He calls and gifts leaders in the church to the position of a prophet.
Jesus is the Teacher but He calls and gifts leaders in the church to the position of teacher.
There is a biblical position of a deacon (1 Timothy 3:8-13) This is what we call connection group leaders. They are deacons by action and function. They are the servant leaders between the elders and the congregation.
There is a Biblical office or position of Elder (1 Timothy 5:17-25) These are men who God appoints to lead HIS local church just as scripture says. They direct the affairs of the church.
There is church discipline in scripture (Matthew 18:15-20;1 Corinthians 5:1-13) If we are all brothers and have no leaders who has authority to discipline rebellious church people?
Heb 13:7 - Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
This verse instructs you to imitate your leaders does that mean they are following the leader or Jesus? Well if the leaders are following Jesus and they are showing you how to imitate that then they are helping people to follow Jesus.
Heb 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
This scripture tells you to obey your leaders. They are called to keep watch over you and will answer for how they do it.
I think what you need to study is how Jesus, who is the head of the church, set up the structure within His own church to bring Himself glory. He is the one who appoints leaders by directing the elders to recognize calling, gifts, character and appointing them to serve in that position. You are using Christology and separating it from ecclesiology. You have taken one verse where Jesus was confronting hypocrits and built a doctrine that does not line up with all of scripture. Jesus built his church on the very nature of God, to send.
Joh 20:21 - So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
Brother, If you knew how much people who are serving Jesus in leadership in this church want to point people to Jesus you would not be so critical. If you thought through the scenario that if there was no leaders, how much chaos there would be in the church of Jesus because he left His house without leadership. God does not leave his house unattended or without leadership. He is a faithful father who gives spiritual fathers, leaders, disciplers, elders, and deacons. I could type on this for days but I am not sure, based on your question, if you are really wanting an answer or just to tell me we are doing it wrong. So I would challenge you to study some ecclesiology. A good book to start with would be “Vintage Church”. I will tell you this bother, I think you would fall in love with Jesus more and serve Jesus greater if you would understand that He is the one who set leadership in place and removes them. God has and always will use people. Now there will always be people who say they are from God but they really are not (false prophets, false teachers, false religion) but God will build His church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Jesus said that line to Peter, who was going to be an apostle in the church and Jesus was giving the keys of authority in His church.
If you want to sit down and talk through this that would be great. You can e-mail me directly.
AMEN!!
Pastor Aaron. Thank you so much for being faithful to the calling & vision the Lord has given you for Life Connection. For every 1 person who has an issue with discipleship, there are dozens upon dozens whose lives have been forever changed and restored because of it. Thank you for not wavering. Thank you for confronting nay-sayers with truth & grace. I am so thankful for the leadership of LCC. I need men and women of integrity keeping me accountable and pouring into me from an authoritative level. I love the way God organized this church… HIS church. I love that He is a God of detail and order, not of chaos and equality. The “everybody’s the same” mentality is just the open door the enemy needs to plant confusion and division with Christ’s church.
“God I pray for unity within this house. I pray for order and like-spirits as we go about our Father’s business. Thank you for protecting us, Lord.”
Why ask a question or multiple questions and answer them and then ask who is OUR discipler?
I agree this is a confusing question, but as usual pastor aaron another great answer. I just look out at the church and see Jesus changing their lives. And, not just for a moment but really life altering changes.
In the end it is all about Jesus! If anyone on leadership is asked about anything, they should all point it all to Jesus and the bible. So Jesus really is the teacher, father and prophet of the house. No one is teaching, or fathering out of their own ideas or book. So once again it’s all about Jesus! Amen
That was a fantastic reply Pastor, I think allot of people including my self from one degree to another have struggled with submitting to authority in the church, either because of a bad Parental authority figure or because our authority / leadership in the church has hurt us or let us down. But never the less authorities / leaders are put there by God to both protect and Guard us. True leadership is appointed by God and submitted to God taking example from him . There are lots of people in the world who like to call them selves a leaders and then seek there own, how ever the highest calling to being a leader (both in today’s case and Jesus’s case) is being self less, not seeking your own. Being in leadership has less to do with you, or a title and more to do with doing the work of the father a tending to the sheep has given you to watch over. It is meant to be a place of humility and sacrifice that our roles as leaders are to not build us up truly but in fact the opposite to break us down, so that we can be a constant flow of God from heaven to his people with out our own agendas or will getting in the way. Leadership really is not a glamorous role, in fact a true leader should have people in there business more then anyone else in the church, true accountability keeps you humble and insures your submission to a church focused on the true goal, Jesus. And the only way that we can do that is to Learn, study, and take example from Jesus. However a church with out headship will fail, Just like a nation, marriage, or life. God appoints, directs and will work out his plan ultimately. I can a test to what MY Pastor Says “If you knew how much people who are serving Jesus in leadership in this church want to point people to Jesus, you would not be so critical” I am one of those leaders who would love to do nothing more then to point you right back to him..He is the way the true and the life…who am I to stand in the way..i am only here to support, love, stand with you and mot of all pray for you.
Well reasoned and laid out response. it is a good question as well and a distinction that needs to be fleshed out. Along with the great comments above it also helps you and you fellow leaders know what your part of and what the story is. You didn’t just make this up but rather are following a biblical basis of leadership. Keep asking and working out the hard questions man
To Zeal.
I think I can understand your frustration or concern and it may come from somewhere else that may need to be investigated and broken in the name of Jesus. Coming from a leadership background in business and church (with a poor perception of God and Jesus), I struggled with submitting to authority. Rest assured it IS all about Jesus being the head of the Church. As a leader we are answering the call to be the best examples and servants that we can be. Know that the enemey is busy and I firmly believe that God is driving this church towards re-establishing, for you and for me that Christ is the head of the church and the head of my life. I applaud your questions and encourage you to study it out…as we all are. Be honest with your self and know that God loves you and He wants you to hear Him clearly but if you are not hearing Him…its not because He isn’t speaking loud enough.
I loved your reply Pastor Aaron, crisp and clear.
Amen.
James Rohl
Yeah baby! On aarondailey.net making a comment. Love it bro. Thanks!!
You all responded better then me. Good insight. I think the things that also would be a great study on top of this is How Jesus appointed leaders in the church. How does someone become a leader in the church. Great stuff to think about. It is all about Jesus and it is important to build you ecclesiology (study of the church) on a strong Christology (Study of Jesus).
Hey all,
I want to make one comment on this to clarify something. There is a big point that we know but can over look in our presentation and that is we are discipling people but we are doing it for Jesus. Discipleship is a relational term and someone outside of that may not understand it. We do not have disciples we are stewarding and making disciples of Jesus. Confusion can come if we continue to use wrong verbage like “this is my disciple.” it would be better to say things like “I am discipling this person” just a thought and I think that is part of what Zeal is saying. We must continue to multiply disciples but for Jesus. “and the church says”
AMEN!!
just a quick thought we can take from what Zeal is saying.
Pastor Aaron-
As far as you last statement (#11)..I completely agree. Everything we are giving to govern over, weather that be money, time, or people being discipled, the truth is it is all the Lord’s. When we begin to use verbiage such as “my disciple” or “my money” or “my whatever” it gets extremely sticky. I can see how pride can also QUICKly slip in it. Personally, I want no part of pride! That is for REAL! Love this post…
Suzee
Ok, so ive never really been in church before, but ive studied Gods word for the past 7 years. Ive been at LCC for 1 year. And when i came into the church, the idea of someone leading the church did not bother me, as we would all agree, without leadership there is chaos, and without leadership who then passes on knowledge of Christ which comes from the Holy Spirit. But Jesus did say go into the world and make disciples of all nations, so did Jesus really tell his disciples to have the whole world be there disciples? Of course not, what he meant was, go into all the world and make disciples (or ‘Christians’) of all nations teaching them about HIM.
My main point was that Christ alone is the Discipler, because Christ is at work through His Holy Spirit in all those who are in the place to disciple other people, so im glad we agree that noone is our disciple, that they are all Christs disciples, and the authority they have is not of themselves or of anyone at all, it comes from Christ alone.
We are mere instruments of Christs headship and leadership, my Zeal is that Christ gets every ounce of Glory and Honor from Every single person, when Someone says they themselves have disciples it is my duty to remind all men that we have absolutely nothing, you and me are absolutely nothing, infact we are dead already, and it is Christ who lives in us, THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN US IS THE ONE WHOM DISCIPLES. Thats my point on discipleship, otherwise i agree on people being discipled, Just that it is reminded that the reason we give people that postion over us is because Christ is in them.
As brett and anyone could testify, i go to Group, i go to church, and at group right now Shawn and Brett are the leaders, and like iron sharpening each other they sharpen us, and we all sharpen eachother, closer and closer to the image of Christ. So obviously i do not have a problem with leadership, heres what im trying to get at.
John 17:11 “Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me- SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE.” The Father the Son the Holy Spirit, ALL ONE. The Chruch, the bride of Christ, WE ARE TO BE ONE AS THEY ARE ONE. We are one body, and Christ is our head. If we are one body, we have different parts, like pastors, or evangelists or prophets, teachers, but these are not postions of headship, they are postions that are given so that the earthly church might be ran smoothly and effectively, each with his own gift and ability. NO PART OF THIS BODY, WHICH IS THE CHURCH IS GREATER THAN ANY OTHER PART. We are given different talents, different abilities, given by God to work in his earthly Kingdom. But if you are calling yourself there Discipler, or there Spiritual Father, or there Teacher, then you are taking headship over them, which is only to be taken by Christ. I am not saying that Connection group leaders are trying to be Christ to anyone, what im saying is not to think so highly of yourself that you look at those people in your group and think, ‘Mine’ because they are not yours, they are Christs, and when you look at the people in your group dont think of yourself as there spiritual father, think of yourself as there BROTHER IN CHRIST, with the postion to serve them by pouring out the wisdom given by the Holy Spirit to you, into them. Brothers correct brothers, older brothers lead younger brothers, older brothers teach younger brothers, but that does not mean that they are there spiritual father.
Im not attacking discipleship, im not attacking leadership, im not attacking the idea of keeping people accountable or teaching or discipleing, for thats what were suppose to do, im attacking the idea that i need someone to be my spiritual mediator between me and Christ. Brett and Shawn are the leaders of my group now, and i agree that they should be in that postion pouring into my life! thats why i go! but do i think they are inheriently greater then the rest of us in the group? NO! They are there because Christ is using them to pour into my life, because Christ is my Father my leader my teacher, and those group leaders are vessels of Christ by which I come closer to Christ.
Let me say this one thing though, I 100% AGREE that we should have leaders who hold us accountable! Its a wonderful thing to have.
Heres an issue i have, God tolled me to go somewhere and to fulfill his will and purpose for my life. What would most of you do if God tolled you to do something? Would you consult spiritual elders? Heres my problem with that, if God tells you do to something, then do it, consult noone! Thats biblical, EVEN PAUL SAID THAT! Galatians 1:15-17 “But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that i might preach him among the gentiles, I DID NOT CONSULT ANY MAN, NOR DID I GO UP TO JERUSALEM TO SEE THOSE WHO WERE APOSTLES BEFORE I WAS, BUT I WENT IMMEDIATELY into Arabia and later returned to Damascus” If someone trys to contradict what God has spoken to you, then should you not LISTEN TO GOD OVER THAT OF MAN?! These leaders of the church are there to help lead us to Christ, and help us grow in Christ, and to keep us accountable, they are the keepers of the body, but there authority is limited at that, you are here to serve us in equipping us for Gods Service, but you do not decide in which way i serve Christ, my relationship with Christ is exclusive, and you or anyone man has no voice in the conversation which commutes between men and God, you are there to make believers into disciples of Christ, you are not there Spiritual Fathers or there Spiritual leaders, FOR WE ARE ONE, AND CHRIST IS HEAD OVER US ALL, WHILE WE STAND ALL ON THE SAME LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.
THIS IS MY MAIN POINT, THESE WORDS OF PAUL
1 CORINTHIANS 3:5-7 “What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? ONLY SERVANTS, THROUGH WHOM YOU CAME TO BELIEVE.-AS THE LORD HIMSELF HAS ASSIGNED TO EACH HIS TASK. I PLANTED THE SEED, APOLLOS WATERED IT, BUT GOD MADE IT GROW.”
And aaron, when i said zeal, you put the verse, zeal without knowledge? So if someone doesnt agree 100% with the pastor, they have no knowledge, they are rebellious heathens who should shut up and keep to themselves? You can call me dumb stupid without knowledge, BUT LET CHRIST BE MY JUDGE NOT YOU! You basically said i have no knowledge, and if i knew Jesus more than i can obtain the knowledge which you seem to have about how Christ built his church. Well i can see the church of Christ in acts and i dont here them preaching discipleship, i see them making disciples of Christ. I really think this kind of conversation is not one to be had by me and you alone, i think everyone should know and ponder these things, before we called each other by saying these are my disciples, now we agree that we are Christs disciples alone, so i think we should continue an open forum for everyone to speak there mind, and let them count the cost for such a brazen move.lol God Bless, i hope you all understand i dont mean to attack anyone, I just want an open conversation. I love you all very much!
to Amber: you said “However a church with out headship will fail, Just like a nation, marriage, or life.”
THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY! In this verse your speaking about headship in our church, but your crediting that headship toward aaron and all the other leaders. WHILE THE TRUE HEADSHIP IS ONLY CHRIST! there is NO OTHER HEADSHIP AT ALL! These men are leaders yes, in that they govern, but headship no, in that they are not the prime source from which all the church flows, that is Christ.
Christy, you said “For every 1 person who has an issue with discipleship…” You can go up again and read what i wrote and i never said i had a problem with discipleship, the verb, the act of discipleing, i have a problem with to whom goes the glory for being the discipler.
Christy, you said “The “everybody’s the same” mentality is just the open door the enemy needs to plant confusion and division with Christ’s church.”
Does God partialize? Is God a respecter of persons? God does not view those in leadership any different from those not in leadership, we are different people with different callings in Gods church. I think what your getting at is that you think i think that there should not be any establishment of leadership, or that everybody in the church should have the same responsibility. You are a youth pastor, and i am nothing, so of course we should not be counted equal in that regard, what i meant was beyond all the titles or postions, God views us all the same, and the position you have is given by God only, it is not yours, you did not earn it, but God gave it to you to work through you for the good of those in youth. and aaron whom God has also placed without any extra greatness of aarons own as the pastor, and he has placed you as a youth pastor, but neither you or aaron or any other leader is greater than any other individual, and thats my point. I believe in structure but that God gets all the glory and we do not crown ourselves leaders of anything, let God place us in postions to which we are not worthy, but by the grace of God he gives to those whom he gives, differently to each person but to each person he still views the same, for we are all one body, with different functions.
Rick, you said “In the end it is all about Jesus! If anyone on leadership is asked about anything, they should all point it all to Jesus and the bible. So Jesus really is the teacher, father and prophet of the house. No one is teaching, or fathering out of their own ideas or book. So once again it’s all about Jesus! Amen”
I completely agree, well said!!
It is all about Jesus, we should be humble, we should not view ourselves as leaders, but servants, we should not view our selves as disciplers of anybody, but fellow disciples of Christ, we should not view ourselves as teachers or fathers, but as brothers, and lowly vessel of Gods Spirit. Everything you say and do is a gift from God, even the words you speak, so how is it any body can take credit for anything at all! Woe to us if we fail in any moment to give all the credit and glory and honor to Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior!! Thats what this is about, Jesus! let us continue to grow in humility as we realize, he is our head, our father our teacher our leader, our everything, and we are his body by which he works, we are one body, he is the only part of the body we can call leader, or father or anything all, for out of reverence i refuse to give glory to any man, but all glory to Christ alone!
I just wanted to let everyone know, i did not mean to attack anyone, and if it comes off harshly than i apologize, i was just making a point that Jesus is the discipler, and we are his disciples. And i hope noone gets hurt by me saying that, its just that ive heard people use those terms saying that these people are my disciples, and so i think that breads alot of confusion.
As soon as I read that Joe was the one who posted these I called Him directly. I love blogs but they are not relational. I talked to him over the phone and discussed the differences. As you read through his responses to me or you it may seem insensitive or harsh… I have a lot of things that I could write in response but I talk to him on the phone and tried to diffuse the situation. I love joe! I do not agree with a lot of the writings or the way he says it but I do agree with one thing make sure you are careful to point people to Jesus. Considering I talk to Joe on the phone I am not going to continue in the debate. His main point that he said on the phone is that no one should say these are my disciples. Good point! He said to me that he did not feel as if anyone was doing anything wrong and that He was not upset. Last time we did this vein I had to erase it because of offense This is what I would ask on these topics of sensitivity… If it is going to cause you to get offended and hate people and walk away from fellowship then the blog is not worth it and forget it we should just post flowers and butterflies and hug each other. My point and stance is clear I am just going to let it stand. So lets not just bask each other with “truth” Lets have grace and truth. Joe I have much love for you and while we disagree on ecclesiology we do agree on Jesus so thank God for that.
I believe in the leadership of the church, and i believe in the groups where people get discipled and are held accountable, that said obviously im not against anything going on with this church.
The only thing ive been struggling with is the idea of whose disciples are we. And by saying this im not attacking anyone. i just think, when Jesus was on the earth, he discipled 12 men, but i dont believe thats our ONLY duty in life. I believe our duty is to disciple people into becoming disciples of Jesus. Go into the world and make disciples, and we can all agree on that. I just want the perception to be that when we go and make disciples, were not going and gathering 12 men and making them our disciples, we are going and discipling men and woman continually, as we go along the roadside preaching and teaching the word. We win people to Christ, making disciples of the world, and of course discipling people teaching them to go out and make more disciples of Jesus, while they to continually disciple different people throughout there walk. i think alot of people view multiplication through discipleship as us copying Jesus, then sending out our twelve or whatever, but remember, Jesus went out making believers and followers but along the way he discipled people and then sent them out. And when he sent them out he sent them into the world to go and make believers along the way, and of course disciple people, but never to call them there disciples, they were merely fellow disciples of Jesus. Im glad we agree that Jesus is the only discipler, and we are all His disciples. Thats what i was trying to say all along. I hope after all this writing some of that came across. And aaron was right, i might not have been the most graceful, but is anyone ever graceful when they are trying to make a point?lol i love you guys, i hope you understood all that i was saying.